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Jefferson’s Final Warnings

Thomas Jefferson WarningPeople remember Thomas Jefferson for the Declaration of Independence, which he wrote in 1776. A few will remember that he served as president from 1801 to 1809, but aside from that, they know almost nothing of his life and work. In actual fact, he lived till 1826, when he died on July 4, fifty years to the day after the ratification of his Declaration.

During those fifty years, Jefferson’s intellectual life bloomed. He was an inventor, a horticulturalist, and especially a philosopher. In fact, he was a brave and excellent philosopher.

As I wrote previously, Jefferson was convinced that he and the other “founders” had blown their shot at freedom. That’s not something that a lot of Americans are comfortable hearing, but it’s true just the same.

His Final Message

In his last years – after a lifetime of learning and experience, Jefferson had one thing preeminently on his mind: the principle of decentralization.

Rather than saying “centralization,” Jefferson used the word “consolidation,” but they mean the same thing. Here’s his core statement on the subject, from his autobiography, written in 1821:

It is not by the consolidation, or concentration, of powers, but by their distribution, that good government is effected.

This statement put Jefferson at odds with the political leaders of his time and raised difficulties for him, as he writes in a letter to Judge William Johnson in 1823:

I have been blamed for saying, that a prevalence of the doctrines of consolidation would one day call for reformation or revolution.

For the following passage – a letter to William Johnson, written in 1822 – I’ll set Jefferson’s words in italics and my explanation/commentary in plain text:

They [a political party] rally to the point which they think next best, a consolidated government.

Here he points out that political parties tend to favor centralization, which they certainly have since.

Their aim is now, therefore, to break down the rights reserved by the Constitution to the States as a bulwark against that consolidation

This party is trying to steal the power of the individual States and centralize it in one city, and they are willing to alter or bypass the Constitution to do so.

the fear of which produced the whole of the opposition to the Constitution at its birth…

Here Jefferson is saying the Anti-Federalists were right and that the Constitution could not prevent the theft of liberties by the national government.

I trust… that the friends of the real Constitution and Union will prevail against consolidation, as they have done against monarchism.

Notice his phrase, “the real Constitution.” Already in 1822, he needed to make this distinction, because the Constitution was already being twisted, overridden, and bypassed.

In a letter to William T. Barry in 1822, Jefferson writes this:

The foundations are already deeply laid by their [the Supreme Court Justices’] decisions for the annihilation of constitutional State rights, and the removal of every check, every counterpoise to the engulfing power of which themselves are to make a sovereign part.

Jefferson is likely referring to the Marbury v. Madison decision of 1803, a decision that American schoolchildren are taught to revere. Jefferson, however, considered it a disaster, as he explained in a letter to Abigail Adams in 1804.

Jefferson continues:

If ever this vast country is brought under a single government, it will be one of the most extensive corruption, indifferent and incapable of a wholesome care over so wide a spread of surface.

Between Lincoln’s Civil War (which enslaved the states to the national government) and the effective takeover of 1913, the country has been brought under a single government. Washington DC is the seat of the American Empire, and the individual states are minor players. It was supposed to be the other way around.

Here is a fragment from Jefferson’s letter to C.W. Gooch in 1826:

… I have little hope that the torrent of consolidation can be withstood….

And a passage from his letter to William B. Giles, in 1825:

I see… with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power.

Either We Take Jefferson Seriously Or We Don’t

If we take Jefferson seriously, we must flatly reject the now-consolidated US government as a corruption.

If we reject Jefferson, we reject his Declaration too, and we also reject the foundations of liberty in America.

A third choice is to put ourselves – purposely – into a sort of mental fog, hoping to avoid the responsibility of seeing and choosing.

There is one final choice: to say that Jefferson was great until 1809, but then he went goofy. That theory, however, would be very difficult to support. The older Jefferson became, the better he became.

So, either we take him seriously, or we don’t.

Paul Rosenberg
FreemansPerspective.com

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  • JdL

    TJ was very perceptive! Each time I see quotes I’d never come across before, this understanding is reinforced. Thanks, by the way, for these examples!

    And yes, he wasn’t a flawless saint. And yes, it’s right not to overlook his weaknesses (holding slaves being the one most often mentioned, rightly so). But when it came to understanding the dangers of Big Government, he was at the head of his class.

  • Greg Hamilton

    Jefferson, like the inexperienced Lenin, thought that you could make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. As Disraeli said, we range from angels to apes. The sad truth is that the apes outnumber the angels by too large a margin; their will, say the rules of democracy, is the one that will dominate. A political system that gives equal rights and the same voice to all in such a republic is doomed to the failure America naively became. It was like a boy–a toddler even–sent out to do a man’s job.

    The world wasn’t ready for Communism because men are insecure, stupid, frightened and greedy. They’re not self-governed. Christianity failed for the same reasons–as did democracy. Anyone who believes that a human mess can be cleaned up by holding an election deserves the disappointment the world holds out for the naïve, the ignorant and the incompetent. The mess can be cleaned up easily, but no one is as interested in that fact as he is in exploiting the anarchy that we’ve collectively created.

    Goethe, Voltaire, Lloyd George and more recently Christopher Hitchens have all expressed the view that we’re a species of retards quarantined in a cosmic detention centre; rejects from a higher civilization. Christ held that view and tried to explain how easy the solution was: to wake up from our sleep of death; to stop worrying about worldly treasure and worry about finding the strait gate out of the dump we’ve gone ape over.

    Jefferson is correct: he failed. America failed. How could they not fail? At this juncture I like to quote that genius Robert Louis Stevenson. ‘We’re not here to succeed. We’re here to fail … in good spirits.’ It can’t be all that hard. Any species that dies is a species that fails. So RLS was right: let’s do it with dignity. In all the chattering going on today, there’s no mention of how that might be achieved. There’s no mention of the basic truth we need to know to stop being self-destructive apes.

    We failed alright. We failed to reach our potential. We failed to rise out of the animal state. We saw the money, took it and ran. Hmmmm.

    • Patricia Hess Plotkin

      Nonsense. Government (and the very few checks and balances) failed NOT We the People. I think this essay went right over your intellect.

      • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

        Thank you for so ably demonstrating my point, Pat. ‘We The People’ were the government in Jefferson’s day. It lasted thirty years before democracy became a plutocracy. Now that plutocracy is a fascist regime. As Pogo Possum said: ‘I’ve seen the enemy, and it’s us.’

        If, as you say, government can fail and ‘We The People’ haven’t, just who and what is this government you refer to? The Soviets went broke for the truth to come out. America doesn’t have that luxury, and is paying for it big time.

        PS – Your dismissive method of argumentation leaves me not caring what you think, if ‘think’ is the operative word. Is that really what you wanted?

        • epictetus

          “we the people” was the late night infomercial (but wait! there’s more!) of its day, marketing gimmick, assertion, a pretty, soothing unction, but never true. to say “it lasted”, whatever length of time (in some minds it is everlasting) is to describe the length of the con only.

          arguably the anti-federalists were brake pads on the consolidationist/centralizing federalist hotrod, but even if so, they were like the oem drums on that souped up ’57 chevy i once had: totally inadequate. “christine”, stephen king’s ’58 plymouth fury (note the “american exceptionalism” root word) – alexander hamilton (any relation?) & his many co-conspirator pals taking turns at the wheel – was unstoppable.

          the whole thing – not just the con-stitutional coup – was about supplanting (not deposing) an authoritarian monarch with a gang of authoritarian oligarchs. whether jeffersonians/anti-federalists were sincere useful idiots, or just playing the “good cops”, doesn’t really matter.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            Epic,
            Jeffersonian democracy (a largish version of the Quaker Meeting)or parish pump democracy lasted about thirty years, which by any definition amounts to a flop, given the wealth of potential America offered at the time. As for the rest of your reply, you didn’t write for ‘We The People’ by any chance? Hamilton is a relation only in the sense that I own him as a great man (which is more than I can say about my lot).

          • epictetus

            greg, since those federalist schemers were on the ground from the get go (& always are, will be), i parse the first 30 years as the all too brief interlude during which reach exceeded grasp. then came the pubertal growth spurt. “group hug” & “hands across the waters”.

            as for the great man, “would that it were, for every hamilton, a burr.”

        • TenMegaton

          But are you good with a gun?

    • Rog

      “The world wasn’t ready for communism…” You mean the communism that murdered millions of people in the name of the “worker?” You mean the communism that was really just a consolidation of power into the hands of the bankers and a giant wool hood pulled over the heads of the fools ignorant enough to buy into the promise of “egalitarianism? ” what ever that is. Really???? How far we have fallen.

      • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

        Settle down Rog your bigotry is showing through. You’re talking about the sow’s ear, not the silk purse. A helluva lot of Bible-bashing Americans honour (albeit hypocritically) the greatest Communist of all time. I’m referring of course to the silk purse.

    • isukusa

      Please use the word “anarchy” correctly. It simply means “no-leader” I think you may mean “lawlessness” which is “anitnomianism.” Please explain your use; you give anarchy a bad name as most do… Nations existed in states of anarchy and were at peace and did fine for many years. We were once such a nation and did just fine without central government. Israel under judges were just fine before they had a King. Failure was the point of the last three ages, or “Mans Day” as referred to in the Bible. Man -in his current state- is incapable is and doomed to failure. The “straight gate” to the next eon will be better…

      • epictetus

        strong start. but does mis-defining a term impose term limits, or expose term-ites? ☻

        and…

        nation

        c.1300, from O.Fr. nacion, from L. nationem (nom. natio) “nation, stock, race,” lit. “that which has been born,” from natus, pp. of nasci “be born” (Old L. gnasci; see genus). Political sense has gradually taken over from racial meaning “large group of people with common ancestry.” Older sense preserved in application to N.Amer. Indian peoples (1640s). Nation-building first attested 1907 (implied in nation-builder).

        we’re all related by blood, & “accident of birth” only works with arbitrary map lines granted as starting point. anarchists understand they’re from/of planet earth, while nationalists, the majority now & forever, color inside “their” leader (map)lines with “their” leader approved crayons. “every wo/man is an island (nation)” – or else a donnekey, listening to the bell around his/her neck tolling.

      • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

        I used the common definition from the OED: Absence of government; disorder; confusion. The other meaning (having no leader), in the context of man as he is, rather than how we’d like him to be, has no relevance here. As America has proved beyond a reasonable doubt, men have to be self-governed if they want to be leaderless, and in that regard I’d call myself an anarchist. Having a leader means abdicating your personal sovereignty because you haven’t found it yet. America is perhaps the most led of any nation today.

        • epictetus

          noarchy, onearchy, metastarchy. “eureka!” cried archimedes. streaking ensued (nude foot racing).

          there’s “man”, the homogenized product, & there’s wo/men, individuals. like you wrote, the apes vastly outnumber the anarchic angels.

        • Joch C.

          “I used the common definition from the OED: Absence of government; disorder; confusion.”
          Funny, I thought the abundance not the absence of government was causing the confusion and disorder.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            You say you thought. What proof do you have?

          • Joch C.

            What proof do you have for us, more government causes less disorder and less confusion? Let me guess, you are gonna pull out the tired Somalia reference.

    • Presbys Ergum

      You mention Christianity and (Jesus) Christ in your comment supporting your ideas of “failure” as you–so typical of Ah-murkins–look at the present and the past with your myopic physical eyes.

      Your statement: “…all expressed the view that we’re a species of retards quarantined in a cosmic detention centre; rejects from a higher civilization. Christ held that view…” is nonsensical, considering the Bible is replete with His statements that man is the epitome of creation, not a “…a species of retards…rejects..”.

      All your points are typical of the misconstrued ideas of most folk who cant conceive of anything but our immediate physical dimensions and limitations.
      It’s obvs to any logically thinking person we are seeing the degradation of our society which is reflected in what you and others refer to as “problems”, but which act.ly are merely symptoms of one specific problem which is simply we’ve forgotten God in all our great experiment, and continue to make a choice to mock, scorn, ignore, and reject Him in all our individual and collective familial and social thots, words, and deeds.

      I’d rather quote somebody who manifests greater hope than I can personally come up with, and preferably somebody who is “…alive forevermore…”, so I dont give much credence to folk like Goethe, Voltaire, or even RLS, who, altho I enjoy reading their works, have been dead for decades a/o centuries.

      Hebrews 11:1 says: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen…”; and in II Chronicles 7:14 God tells us:
      “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

      Chistianity hasnt failed, God aint dead, nor ought we accept such a negative attitude. Our choice is obvious, and simple: “…how long halt ye between two opinions?…”, and: “…choose ye this day whom ye will serve…”….

      • Laura Lee

        Amen.

      • Joch C.

        “Chistianity hasnt failed, God aint dead, nor ought we accept such a negative attitude.”
        No, but most “Christians” have failed. Church is more worried about telling we where to sit and how to smile than building men of character and getting them elected… And if one does happen to get elected, he is a communist whether is be amoral communist and or an economic communist.

        • Douglas Kelly

          Church is nothing more than a social-psychological support group having little, if nothing, to do with the spiritual person. Amorality exists only in men and their emotional needs.

      • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

        When people talk about God as a third party, they betray their ignorance. I follow the rule that those who know God don’t talk about it; those who don’t will blather on like idiots till the cows come home. This poor world is plagued by blatherers. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

        • epictetus

          in ways that differ but little, this is the last word of western & eastern wisdom alike. the hindu upanishads say:

          he who thinks that god is not comprehended, by him god is comprehended; but he who thinks god is comprehended knows him not. god is unknown to those who know him, & is known to those who do not know him at all.

          goethe says it in words which, to the modern mind, may be plainer:

          the highest to which man can attain is wonder; & if the prime phenomenon makes him wonder, let him be content; nothing higher can it give him, & nothing further should he seek for behind it; here is the limit.

          or there are the words of st. john of the cross, one of the greatest seers of the christian tradition:

          one of the greatest favors bestowed on the soul transiently in this life is to enable it to see so distinctly & to feel so profoundly that it cannot comprehend god at all. these souls are herein somewhat like the saints in heaven, where they who know him most perfectly perceive most clearly that he is infinitely incomprehensible; for those who have the less clear vision do not perceive so clearly as do these others how greatly he transcends their vision.

          eddington, the physicist, is nearest to the mystics, not in his airier flights of fancy, but when he says quite simply, “something unknown is doing we don’t know what.”

          ~ some snips from “the wisdom of insecurity”, alan w. watts

          • Douglas Kelly

            very well said. If there is really no pure truth in the world, that is the closest anyone can come to it.

        • Presbys Ergum

          ~~ eh, Greg, i dont know how y’all do it in Ohs-trial-yer, but i think there be a wee bit o difference twixt blathering — nonsensical jabbering — and dialoguing on diverse topics of mutual — albeit p’r’aps moot — topics of some societal import.
          Any references I make to God, human being that i am, does not relegate him to a 3rd party status, he being the Cause of all the effects we can determine, Ltd as we are with our five (+/-) senses.
          As for being ignorant concerning God I readily admit that; but my ignorance is due to my failure to partake of His revelations of Himself to me, which he promises to share in abundance.
          One difference lies in the fact I’ve set my sights on things above, and no longer focus on material things, including political, financial, and other areas of our physical lives.

          Of course, not to say I’m no longer affected by ALL such things–always shall be so long as Im in this time world; but my paradigm (model), world view, or philosophy as some would say, enables me to look beyond the (supposedly) obv.s, and — dare I repeat myself, and Paul the Apostle — “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1;
          Thanks, Greg, for dialoguing! I dont cast ballots in polling places, but I do try to “vote” every day. Its called grass roots politicking. I’ve been a teacher for over 50 years, altho that is my avocation, not my vocation; i see no reason to stop now — too many things to learn from folk like you, bro!

          • Douglas Kelly

            You miss the whole point of what epictetus said. If I might add to this, all religions are man made. The Bible was written by men. The God that was revealed and his revelations to which you refer are nothing more than the mind of men attempting to explain the incomprehensible. They failed badly.

  • Hey You

    Yes, the consolidation has been implemented; it’s referred to as patriotism. However, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Somewhat soon (my guess is mid 2016) the federal system will implode. It simply is not viable. First there will be state secessions and subsequently it all comes apart.

  • Laura Lee

    Sinful men have nothing but government and self to which to look. To the Christian, we look to Jesus and His Kingdom. In Christ alone is the power of maturity in perfect love ending all need for State in Christian community separate from the world. Today, we are still sinful. But, the day will come when by the grace of God we overcome sin, Satan, this world… the State. The State is the LAW. We are saved by grace. The Kingdom of Jesus is not of law but of grace… grace which perfects and will free us from the evil of flesh, sin, this world, and Satan. The battle is on. The 666 beast system is rising. To the transfiguration! The only hope is Jesus, perfection, and dominion over LAW by grace… and the end of the State on American soil by miraculous means.

    • H.L. Mencken’s Ghost

      Nothing like a healthy dose of breathless evangelical dispensationalism to stimulate the discussion. Dumbass.

      • Laura Lee

        Let’s see… you have not one logical thing to say… and you call ME that name?? Really. Perhaps you did not realize that America was shaped by the thinking that came forth from the Reformation of the royal priesthood of all believers. Perhaps you have never read John Winthrop’s “A Model of Christian Charity” in his “City on a Hill” speech. Perhaps you have no knowledge that it is Christian thinking which produced “God-given inalienable rights”. And, perhaps you do not realize that it is only a perfected people who can function with no State. I think it is you who is… ya know.

        • Austein

          Please explain to us how a state formed from the worst of humanity, suffering from extreme libido dominandi, is better than forgoing a state altogether. Hobbes had it entirely backward.

          • Laura Lee

            My call is to, actually, destroy the Federal Government in the name of Jesus. It’s an apostolic call. Not by means of politics or the flesh or any violence. But by the Word of God and prayer. I’ve come sent by God… as an apostle set in place over the soil… to destroy the Federal Government… to pull Christians from the brink of destruction on American soil… declaring that the Constitution is a treaty with Satan. How would you like, as a Christian, to answer that call? It’s the cross I bear. The Kingdom of Jesus Christ is not of this world. I’ve come to destroy the State as a work of the devil on American soil… to which Christians… are addicted like cocaine. Whatever Hobbes said, Jesus has spoken to me in a face to face salvation. That’s all I need to hear. And, I”m answering my call. Things will not stay at the level of “talk”. I’m to emerge in apostolic power of the supernatural. It’s my cross to bear.

          • Austein

            You seem to be assuming I am Christian. I simply try to ignore the political as much as possible. I consider myself an anarchist. I reject their authority while recognizing their resolve to enforce their will. Theirs is a veiled evil made possible by the willing support of the deceived and personally deceitful of the world.
            Thomas Hobbes believed we had to have a government to restrain us so that it wouldn’t just be all-against-all. He completely ignored that governments are made of nothing but humans, rarely the best, and often the most deceitful. Also absent from his assumptions was the notion that cooperation was even a possibility among the ungoverned. But tell me how is a government formed without cooperation being already at work? Even in a monarchy or dictatorship there must first be a willingness to cooperate. Barring that, you then have the nasty, brutish and short lives that Hobbes attributed, incorrectly, to anarchy.
            No, Laura. I have no desire to join your efforts against one face of evil. The USG may be the worst among them, but the political mindset that prevails around the globe has to be exposed for the evil that it is. Until people see political means for what they are, nasty and brutish, bringing down one government only opens the door for another. How often have those replacement governments turned out to be better? Unless we truly are living the events described in the Revelation to John, you will only be making room for another criminal gang to take over. It is all people know. They don’t even see the possibillity of forgoing coercive government, beause they have been trained their entire lives to believe it is necessary, and even good.

          • Laura Lee

            By no means am I assuming that you are a Christian. Nor am I speaking inclusively of unbelievers. It is not possible to join me without joining the body of Christ as a Christian. I am not of this world… but all who are not saved are not capable of rising above it in and through Jesus Christ. Dominion over the State is possible successfully only by the Spirit of God.

            We are living in the time of the Revelation of John. It is now time for ZION to rise by fully supernatural means. I make no room for another criminal gang.

            In the power of the two witnesses, men who raise a hand to harm them are stricken dead before them by God by fully supernatural means. It is like Peter towards Ananias and Sapphira.

            Without that level supernatural power, there is no power of exit from the system of the State.

            The necessity is for supernatural power of God with us. Otherwise, as you say, all make room for the next evil.

            But, when the supernatural power goes forth… the door of exit from the system opens… and the church escapes through the door to Zion.

            What is Zion? Like unto Eden.

            There is no State there. Only the rule of God and perfect liberty by persons in one accord in full unity as one body in entire sanctification.

            The revolution that is successful is that revival that so ends. So, we are agreed in reality about these principles.

            Any power of a group of individuals who would overcome the State must be supernatural power… since human violence… is the arm of the flesh, the law, the State, the police.

          • Joch C.

            Hi Laura,

            How does this fit into your walk?
            John 18:36

            Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

          • Laura Lee

            Perfectly. I am discussing spiritual supernatural power. States are kingdoms of this world. States use the arm of the flesh… they do the physical arrest and all of these things. We who bring the Kingdom do so by supernatural power with no arm of the flesh… and the weapons of our warfare are spiritual not carnal (natural) and mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. The natural mind believes that the Way of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ produces subservience to the State, the natural, the wicked… and defeat. But, the spiritual mind knows that the Way of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ in subjection to God as King produces dominion and rule and reign over Satan, the flesh, this world, the wicked… the State. Therefore, we shall be victorious on American soil as prophesied in scripture as the Church of Philadelphia. The synagogue of Satan (Revelation 3) shall be forced under our feet in our dominion and victory and triumph.. by fully supernatural means of the Kingdom of Heaven come on earth as in Heaven in dominion, triumph, victory, as we occupy til Jesus comes.

          • Joch C.

            Well Laura I look at this world as more of a personal trial rather than collective mandate. Meaning, you either choose Jesus is real or you do not. Conversely, if you do not choose Jesus, you have chosen the world. Once you do choose Jesus, there will be personal repentance and some works but really it is a waiting game. We patiently wait our death to be reunited with our maker. Once reunited, I will be given further instruction.
            That’s is, rather simple.

          • Joch C.

            I think you may be going about your mission all the wrong way? Sounds a little creepy if you ask me.

          • Laura Lee

            LOL ~~ Yes, it would sound “creepy”… very creepy… to anyone who does not understand the power by which Ananias and Sapphira were stricken dead.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            Good grief. There goes any chance of an intelligent conversation.

          • Laura Lee

            Greg, the natural mind and the supernatural mind have no meeting of the mind. I am certain you are an intelligent man according to the natural mind. I do choose to interpret all through the supernatural mind believing the supernatural supercedes and even brought forth the natural. So, agreed, we part ways.

          • epictetus

            but roy hobbs, the natural, not in the rouseauian sense, had it right. ☻ (

          • Austein

            I wouldn’t know. Never read/watched it.

      • Blank Reg

        Indeed, the universe is too much a vast and awe-inspiring place to be left to the simplistic, anthropomorphic explanations in a book written by ignorant early iron-age men as a means of social control. That’s why the Gary North’s of the world are scared shitless of us finding even a single microbe on places like Mars or Europa. Never mind another entire world orbiting a distant star.

        • Presbys Ergum

          ~~ yo — the “Book” is still here, after thousands of years; where you gonna be, in just a few years or a decade or so? meanwhile, the “state” system has us $pending trillion$ on space travel, trillion$ on this, trillion$ on that, and we’re living like paupers while the fat-cat Mattoids who “lead” us are taking their ease.
          But is continue to rest me in the thot and promise:
          Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 19:30: &c….

          • Austein

            The money spent on space travel is a drop in the bucket compared to the amounts spent killing and oppressing. At least space exploration, at its base, is an expression of man’s curiosity to know what is just beyond the horizon. My beef with government funding it is that it is all done with blood money.

          • Joch C.

            Fund your own space travel, soothe your own curiosity’s. I found my answers, they are in the Bible. I don’t need space travel nor a super collider to bring me peace.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            So, any anaesthetic will do. Hmmmm.

          • epictetus

            any port, bottled or otherwise, in a storm.

          • Joch C.

            You just finished telling me and the world, your libertarianism was all bout letting other people live their own life.
            So yes, any anesthetic will do.
            What you need to do, is stop stealing from me, to fund your personal concept of anesthetic. To each his own so long as you pay for it yourself( or with like minded individuals in voluntary cooperation).

          • epictetus

            “at base” it was, remains, a states’ race to militarize, take the highest of the high ground.

          • Austein

            For the state, yes. But for the average person who looks to the stars, and supports the state’s space program, it is about space exploration. But isn’t that my whole point? The political is destructive.

          • epictetus

            “and supports the state’s space program” is an average dupe tho, right? politics is just a method; authoritarianism is destructive. but, authority is not only imposed, it is sought. see those two in close embrace together & realize that man, generally, is destructive.

      • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

        H. L. would really be proud of the dumbass using his name.

        • epictetus

          hl would’ve written it better. nobody ever wrote much of anything better. but he’d have had no problem with the sentiment.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            I’m a fan of HL. He wrote well, and could therefore get away with a bit of self-indulgence. He demonstrated the maxim that when you do something well, people will give you a bit of rope. Some rope is also ideal for the less articulate to hang themselves.

          • epictetus

            i’d say mencken wove his own lariats, roped bovines far & wide & at will. but as always, context, accidents/exigencies of time/place allowed him to do his thing w/o getting strung up or stampede trampled, attaining the survivorship that feeds the bias.

    • Austein

      Far too many supposed followers of Jesus are adherents of the warfare/welfare state. They even boo Ron Paul when he suggests that our foreign policy should look more like the golden rule. When they begin to emulate the Prince of Peace more than sycophants of eartly kings, maybe I will consider taking them seriously.

      • Laura Lee

        Auestein… You have no idea how grieved I am in my spirit that Christians really who do not “know better” (though they have the Bible to show them) are actually Statists. You have no idea how challenging it is for me to answer my call to tell them… that the wrath of God is on America for their sakes… not for the sakes of those who don’t know Jesus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uieCMgyyLi8 I call this tape “Lukewarm and Headed for a World of Trouble”.

        • Austein

          Shared sentiment, that one.

          • Joch C.

            You guy are not alone, I am a Christian libertarian who understands Romans 13 is a strict limitation on government rather than encouragement to turn a blind eye…

          • Laura Lee

            As you read the NIV… the NWO translation… you will believe that the Romans 13 authority stated is the “State”. As you read the KJV and consider, Romans 12 is all about the church leading into Romans 13. Romans 13 is revealing church leadership… the Government of God. The ekklesia is the body of Christ. That meaning is Government of God. The royal priesthood of all believers forms the church, the ekklesia, the holy nation, the Kingdom nation. Romans 13 is speaking of the church as that nation. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual. It defies natural imagination, but God is speaking about the power of the ministers of God, the royal priesthood, as a nation of priests… the Kingdom nation… to bear dominion over the other peoples, nations, and states… by fully supernatural means of God with us. When you believe that Romans 13 ministers of God are officers of the State rather than the officers of the Church in their anointing as kings and priests…

          • Joch C.

            In simple terms Paul says in Romans 13 government is only here to punish evil and commended goodness, to this they attend 24/7/365.
            So to me, any time government acts in opposition to the above mandate, they are not a government, therefore I must not submit.

          • Laura Lee

            Josh C – In simple terms, Romans is a letter to the church. Romans 12 speaks of gifts, offices, measures of faith. One of the gifts and offices is rulers of the church. Now, we move to Romans 13. The scripture is about the ekklesia, the Government of God, the ministers of God in the Kingdom nation of the CHURCH… not the State. When in the ANOINTING of God, in the ORDINATION of God by anointing as the ministers of God, they are in the Spirit of God and have the literal supernatural spiritual authority of God at work in and through them. Other than by reading the NWO NIV false translation… what ever gave you the idea that God was talking about Hitler and his ilk?

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            Christian libertarian?! The central idea of libertarianism is that people should be permitted to run their own lives as they wish. The central idea of Christianity is that you subscribe to the doctrines of the Christian Church; things like the Ten Commandments and what have you. There’s nothing libertarian about the content of the stone tablets. If you’re a libertarian as well as a Christian, don’t you see the dilemma you’ve created for yourself? There’s this cake, see. You’re obliged to either eat it or hang onto it. Well … don’t keep us in suspense.

          • Joch C.

            No dilemma whatsoever ever. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Law, I now live by faith, saved by grace. No doctrines at all. I don’t worry about others and how they live, that is up to them to figure out. I am pretty busy removing my plank… Seems like you are more worried about how Christians should live. See the dilemma you have created…
            Matthew 7:3-5
            3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

        • Presbys Ergum

          ~~ unlike Laura, i CAN relate to all those who think the state is god; i “assumed” it to be, back inna day, but could never figger out why my “lower-middle-class” parents, who worked all their lives, were living in a hovel in Lancaster oHIo back inna ’60’s when i came back to the states for a vacation. it took me several years to wrap my head round the Truths of our purposed existence on this ol balla dirt we call “home”.

          Much of the probs of “the church” today can be traced to several things, but one of the biggest, which NObody seems to address these days, is “INCORPORATION” as a 501 (c) (3) creation of, and under the dominant control of, the state system.

          I’ve been called a communist, traitor, and skuckin bum fag, and asked, told, & encouraged in several ways to leave the country if i didnt like it, over the past 50+ years.. Of all the thousands of folk i’ve talked to, only a couple have returned and told me i wuz spot on in my prophesying. But i rest me in the thot: “it aint about me” — Galatians 2:20 !!

          • Laura Lee

            http://graceexplosion.com/donate/ The Constitution itself is a charter that INCORPORATED the Federal Government as a corporation. The United States of America is a corporation. I do address 501c3. God has stated to my heart that if Christians will recognize the truth by revelation of what the Christian Kingdom nation really is… and remove their children from public schools in obedience to Him, He will bring the whole house of cards of the Federal Government to fall on American soil. (They will of course take further steps to get out from under 501c3… but the primary issue is public education.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUB0nB5etJs

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            So, in short, the message here is if we can stop being a puppet Type B and become a Puppet Type A, all will be well. What’s this morbid fascination with puppetry? What’s this aversion to being real flesh and spirit? Why this obsession with clapped-out scripture? Legs are meant for standing up in strength, fearless, not kneeling down in submission, cringing. I might believe a little of what you say if you’d just stop telling us what God wants and doesn’t want. You don’t know. What unmitigated arrogance and pride! What sanctimonious drivel! Nobody wants to listen to crackpots, especially ‘Godsent’ crackpots. So spare us, please.
            We’re all on a mission of discovery of what is. You’ve stopped the coach at the first relay station and want the rest of us to join you in celebrating your borrowed, unoriginal, fundamentalist view of where we might have gone had we stayed in the coach. You can’t sell ideas this way. I’d leave off and try something you’re good at.

          • Laura Lee

            Greg, you speak as though you had authority. Tyranny is comprised of those who attempt to exert false authority. I do not recognize any authority you posture. It is times like this that persons agree to disagree. I suggest you move on seeing as how I do not recognize your authority as coming from God… and as a mere mortal man… you have none over me in my liberty.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            I don’t seek authority over you, just your boring the arse off us on this blog. You’re a blatherer, and it’s tedious. Go away. I promise to do the same.

          • Laura Lee

            You attempt to define me by your own ideas and issue an edict. Again, I respect no such authority. Speak for yourself, not others. It is the first rule of liberty. You need no agreement from me to simply go away of your own free volition, since a lady has has so requested.

          • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

            Hey Presbys,
            Hang in there, sunshine. Sounds like you gotta brain and a soul. It takes cheek and a spotta gaul to use em the way you do, but I can thinkuv another bod who did likewise and turned out alright even if the conformist mob didn’t think so. You’ve created a self, which is tantamount to Self. That’s more than most of us can say. Look after it. It’s all you’ll ever have that counts for anything.

      • Presbys Ergum

        ~~ you’re wasting your time thinking about “taking “them” seriously. the purpose of our lives here on earth is to take Jesus Christ seriously —

        Matthew10:28 — “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

        FEAR: φοβέω phobeō fob-eh’-o From G5401;
        to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: – be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
        (thanks to: Rick Meyers ~~ http://www.e-sword.net)

      • Joch C.

        The last caucus I Was at, the CC came out in full force to shutdown Paul and uplift santorum, lol. These people don’t want a personal relationship with Christ, they want a totalitarian theocracy lead by men who worship false idols.

    • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

      I don’t know which Jesus you’re referring to, but the one I know didn’t go along with this grace bit. He came with a sword, and it had no truck with saving people from their sins or forgiveness. None of that is compatible with the achievement of self-government he preached. We earn our forgiveness by making reparation for the sin we’ve committed. In other words, we reverse-engineer our devious deed until the offended party starts to smile a bit. The Catholic Church came up with the promise of a free lunch in exchange for submission. It was just one plank in a platform of gaining control of the minds of the mass of men. That people still go with that today leaves me reeling with disbelief.
      There won’t be any miracles other than the ones you create for yourself. As the quantum physicists all agreed, all is mindstuff now. All the rest we paddle around in is pure illusion. They were beaten to the punch on that by the fellow said (erroneously, it seems) to have traipsed up and down Palestine. Whether he was real or not is irrelevant. The Sermon on the Mount was the best modern psychology ever recorded. Alas, it also holds the dubious title of the most ignored tract of human wisdom on the public record.

      • Presbys Ergum

        ~~ nor do i know which “Jesus” you refer to–p’r’aps a Mexican amigo?
        Speaking in circles as you do, i dont believe you know much about the Jesus of the Bible. The Bible speaks “Grace” to us from the presentation page to the maps section. The two-edged sword refers to the Spirit and the Word of God, which signifies it is a spiritual battle for the minds of men we are engaged in, and there is no “fence” or neutral ground for anybody. You are either on the side of The Lord Jesus Christ, or Satan’s.

        We’re not discussing churches here, whether the Roman Catholic, Protestant, or any other visible, physical man-made sect, cult, or denomination. Altho you appear to believe the physical realm we all know and love–our comfort zone–is all there be to life.

        My friend, you can not be more ignorant of the Truth of the purpose and meaning of life, than when you claim Jesus is not relevant. The “terminated mission of Jesus” you refer to was prophesied about by dozens of “early iron-age men” (Blank Reg’s comment) over centuries of time, and to lay claim to such an absurdity in the face of historical discoveries in many disciplines is to reveal the extent to which you and many others continue to “…paddle around in…pure illusion and self-deception…

        • Laura Lee

          The name of my ministry is Grace Explosion. I saw Jesus face to face in full revelation in my salvation… and can see Grace at the 100% level. It is the power to cast down Leviathon, the State, Satan, and arise in transfiguration glory. This is what will happen in what is termed “rapture”. The dragon of Revelation 12 is Leviathon, the world system, the beast system, the Federal Government of the USA. The battle takes place on American soil. This is the soil of the “Church of Philadelphia”. Revelation 3 and 12. Fires of Revelation 18 will sweep. That too. Interesting times. When we see an Assyrian British citizen in the WH… the hour is late. PS… the flag and the statue of liberty are in reality occult symbols. If you heed the prophet,and seek the Lord, and understand what I am saying, please change the avatar to a Christian symbol… or none.

          • Joch C.

            Like the rest of us, you are going to have to wait till death. However I do agree, Christians could make this world a much better place although not heaven. This world will never be Heaven.

          • Laura Lee

            Joch… Jesus came to earth as God made a man preaching the Kingdom of Heaven here. It is not a “religion” of waiting until physical death to enter the Kingdom, but rather of bringing the Kingdom of Heaven on earth as in Heaven. This world shall be Heaven. That is the whole purpose of the creation. (At the end, this earth and Heaven become the earth and Heaven above, and New Jerusalem comes down upon it.) The paradigm you hold… though you may not be a Christian so it is a moot point to you personally perhaps… is not biblical. We are here to bring the Kingdom of Heaven on earth as in Heaven. Thus, we are sent of Jesus Christ to bring that Kingdom… in opposition to the world system. Thus, we are sent to destroy the kingdom of the world system, to take the land given us that we may bring the Kingdom of Heaven on the soil. I.e. We have come, at a certain level, to destroy the State… the kingdoms of this world that belong to Satan. We are here as an army… and we have come for war. We are come to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth… by wholly supernatural means. I come as an apostle sent from Jesus Christ in face to face commission to bring the Kingdom in His name. Like Joan of Arc… but spiritually speaking.

          • Joch C.

            John 18:36

            Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

      • Laura Lee

        You are self-deceived and deceiving others.

      • Joch C.

        “He came with a sword, and it had no truck with saving people from their sins or forgiveness.”

        I hope you are not referring to a metal sword used for aggression, rather a spiritual sword.

        Hebrews 4:12

        For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

      • Joch C.

        Greg,
        1 more thing, the Catholic church I snot universally approved. The farce you mention was the genesis of Martin Luther’s reformation and the beginning of the protestant church. Now I admit, unfortunately many of todays protestant churches have drifted back towards catholic and legalist Judaism.

    • Douglas Kelly

      Oh, Laura Lee, give us a break. This is what almost all religions prognosticate. Islam says this in a different way, but yet it is condemned in America because it’s viewed by Christians as having the intention to take over the world. Is that not what Christianity also teaches? How does a Christian come to disdain other religions such as Islam when Islam is directly derived from both Judaism and Christianity; same God, same beliefs vis a vis the beatitudes and the God of the old Testament at once? All religions are man made. Some of it in the hope to satisfactorily explain the unknowns in the world and the balance of belief relies on faith for that which is incomprehensible.

  • Rob Meier

    The real illusion in all of this is the Constitution itself. As Americans we wrap ourselves in the flag and look at this wonderful thing that was created. Like Lysander Spooner said, “But whether the Constitution really be one thing,
    or another, this much is certain – that it has either authorized such a
    government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In
    either case it is unfit to exist.”
    At what point do we de-legitimize this, as a ruse to make people THINK they have freedom?

    • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

      Rob,
      My answer to your question would be that the mess we’re born into is right and natural providing we don’t expect it to be something it plainly isn’t and can’t ever be while we remain cosmic duds. It’s a foil against which we hone our character, or soul. It’s a process we might call de-dudifying ourselves. You don’t test a soldier’s merit by sitting him at a desk. Once we see the beauty of the calamity we’ve created for ourselves, we can get busy with the polishing. The biggest problem to be met there is that the great bulk of humanity will think you’re weird. They may even get so upset that your life may be taken from you. That will mean the polish job was as good as it gets.

      • Rob Meier

        Weird? One of the great strengths of this country is it’s legitimacy of freedom from the Founding Fathers establishing libertarian(classical liberal) beliefs. The fact is, that we have gone 180 degrees in the opposite direction towards collectivism and fascism. Through the dumbing-down in our education system and mass-media propaganda, we have sustained the myths. The legitimacy is being worn away through a growing police state, higher taxes, inflation, less financial freedom, etc. “An idea whose time has come is stronger than any standing army”. The fact that the chains of tyranny are becoming tighter while we basque in our supposed freedom is becoming ever more obvious.

        • http://www.phoenixpress.com.au Greg Hamilton

          ‘Supposed freedom’ is right. Freedom is an attitude of mind, not something a Constitution, a Bill of Rights, a President or Congress can assure you have. It’s in the mind and all we need to do is draw it out. Instead we look around outside us. We’re bound to fail. So we become neurotic and fear-filled. It’s no way to live, or even subsist. Dogs do it better.
          Here’s some good advice from 800 years ago:

          “Take someone who doesn’t keep score,
          who’s not looking to be richer, or afraid
          of losing, who has not the slightest interest
          even in his own personality: he’s free.”
          ―Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (aka Rumi)

  • Adly Onspa

    One thing that I’ve always found a little disconcerting about Jefferson is that he was good at saying things that were logical and “right,” but he never, ever went into harms way to actually “do” anything. During the Revolution, Jefferson went into hiding. Even 80 year old Ben Franklin took a commission as General to help plan a battle or two.

    So, the statists took over long ago, they don’t care about all of intellectually stimulating Jeffersonian rightness blogged on the internet, because that’s about as much of a threat to their power as voting. Just sayin.

    • Metatron-Enoch

      Having served in war, it became increasingly apparent that this line of duty is not meant for everyone. Just because Jefferson did not take the field does not mean he was a coward, but it may mean something you and I do not understand about the man. Though many fought in the revolutionary war, Jefferson and Adams seem to take the intellectual field on our behalf. For this, I am eternally grateful.

      Many wish to fight and seem glorious in battle, but it is not as great as many people perceive it to be. War damages the soul of a man, something he must live with from day to day, baggage if you will. All the thoughts of “should have” or “I wish” forever haunt the mind.

  • Scott Laningham

    Flawed like all of us, Jefferson still deserves the title of a great and visionary man. Thanks for the article. We would all do well do look more closely at how early some of the founders began to see failure in our great experiment. At least it might cause some to ponder the American Exceptionalist fog they live in.

  • Gordon Johnson

    The enshrinement of compromises over slavery within the text of the Constitution was a congenital defect that eventually proved fatal. Beyond this, the imperfections in the Constitution are one and the same as the imperfections in ourselves: vanity, powerlust, rationalization, greed.

    No compact can defend itself before the eyes of an uncaring public. And most people, given even a little, or even illusory, sugar in the form of loot will willingly swallow whole the most odious of policy prescriptions.

    The reason is this: Their lusts seem more real to them than their natural prerogatives. And they somehow cannot in logic and reason connect the loss of their prerogatives to the pains they feel when their freedom to act is denied.

    • epictetus

      trojan horse “defects” – hollowed out compartments – are purposely manufactured, rather than congenital. if anything, the slavery “compromises” facilitated metastasis of enslavement. hummel’s title hits it: “emancipating slaves, enslaving free men”…..

  • epictetus

    soft & nice hitman, chip off the usg block (“g” is for guidoment) on jefferson, etc…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zK-b0INu1k

  • trojanguy

    His very prescient writings convince me that we are headed towards a Second American Revolution which will be necessary to protect what little freedoms and Liberties we still have in America. An ever growing, out of control Federal Government has become the BIGGEST danger facing our Republic. The Founding Fathers knew that we would come to this point in America…..how We the People respond to this unlawful, unconstitutional Imperial President and his supporters will decide the future of this great nation!

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